henry higgins says: August 1, 2019 at 11:02 am. A = Atom(s) used with numbers to differentiate, P2) If B = N then NE is between A1 and A2, P3) If NE is between A1 and A2 then A1 and A2 cannot be separated as there is no E to separate them. Snowflakes and rainbows don’t “spontaneously appear.” The material, conditions, and natural laws necessary for them to appear exist. … Despite the many other enormous advances of modern physics, little has changed in this regard. Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Cieza, Nov 30, 2011. So there you go, I saved the less mentally damaging for last. Managed by Chittam Technology Solutions, LLC. Another thing my father believes is that mathematics doesnt really exist in … “Something can’t come from nothing, so their must be a God” (cosmological, or First Cause, argument) is not only a non sequitur when defending ones religious claims, it is also not a very good argument on its own merit. Asked by: Rob Answer The law you cite, applies only to 'closed systems', i.e. In English, this means that if there is nonexistence (nothing) between two atoms, then logically those two atoms must be touching, as there is nothing separating them. Given the First Law of Thermodynamics: that you can't get something from nothing. ((Krauss, A Universe from Nothing, xiii.)). It’s a catch-22. However, if they are touching, then there is no space between them and therefore no space for this void/nothing, therefore there is no void. Any answer that solves this problem for god can probably also just be used to explain the universe itself instead. He just always existed Ok, then the laws of physics could have always existed. He has been described as the father of modern physics. Something came from nothing due to god leads directly into the question Where did god come from. A vacuum is a balanced combination of matter and antimatter, or particles and antiparticles. – Erin’s Conclusion. As argued by scholars such as Philip Davis and Reuben Hersh, mathematics exists independent of physical reality. When this question is asked it is usually in regard to the origin of our universe. Well it is nothing at all, because everything that has existence is made of atoms, so the void is something non-existent. One cannot get a something from a nothing. In other words, the total amount of energy in the universe appears to be zero. Results are only viewable after voting. Imagination allows that to be possible. … If virtual particles can come from nothing, does that mean that something can actually come from nothing? These guys have come up with the first rigorous proof that the Big Bang could indeed have occurred spontaneously because of quantum fluctuations. No, only God, and my God at that. In order for there to be something between two atoms, something must exist. What is there to stop something from popping into existence? There are numerous issues that one would then encounter, because there is no logical reason why something cannot come from nothing (the absence of existence). The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). Well, that's not really accurate. James Clerk Maxwell (1831–1879) was a committed Christian who viewed his biblical faith as the basis for all the scientific work he did. Something can't come out of nothing. Together with various other more technical properties, this led Tryon to suggest that the universe was created from nothing or, more precisely, what physicists call the vacuum state. Can Something Come From Nothing? There is no "nothing" in space and never was. So now we have established that something can come from nothing. Between atoms is a void of nothing. Therefore between all atoms are atoms, and between those atoms are atoms and this goes on infinitely. When put in a modern context, like discussing the Big Bang and “Something coming from nothing,” YEC’s will have numerous issues trying to use this concept. Here is this common misconception in a nutshell: “The universe couldn’t have possibly popped into existence out of nothing.” Quantum Physics is, in a way, the new kid on the block. Can it? These great minds gave us the following issues that were in direct conflict with each other and will eternally mess with the minds of undergraduate philosophy students: the Paradox of Bisection (Zeno and Parmenides), and Atomism (Democritus). But if all space in the universe was filled with matter and substance, where could these other atoms (like people) move into? You can't have division without a cell. It's virtual impossibly. The universe came from nothing. Dr. Krauss has not explained how the water came into existence to make the snowflake or the informational structure that constitutes the substance we call water to explain how it always reacts the same way to temperature variations and predictable weather conditions. After all, they cannot be observed and some physicists claim they’re just useful computational tools, not actually existing. Am I being ignorant here or can something come from nothing? The Universe Created Itself. It can't account for anything since anything is something and something does not appear spontaneously from nothing. However, most physicists disagree. There are two ways in which one can go about dismissing the idea of “nothing” in regards to Democritus’ theory. 2. There has to be something or someone who created this and us. To most people, the claim that something cannot come from nothing is a truism. And to go from that next halfway point to the destination you must again go half way. I was searching for an old copy of a popular science magazine that had a small sentence in a history of 20th century scientists article. Therefore, atoms are between atoms, which have more atoms between those atoms, and so on. God did design the material (and everything else) that makes up snowflakes and the process by which they form. Creation ex nihilo - without God (1997) (Updated 2011) Mark I. Vuletic . The foundational points we can establish thus far are the following: 1. Where did that first cell come from? Absolute nothingness cannot produce something given endless time—in fact, there can be no time in absolute nothingness.” ((Abraham Varghese, “The ‘New Atheism’: A Critical Appraisal of Dawkins, Dennett, Wolpert, Harris, and Stenger,” in Anthony Flew with Abraham Varghese, There is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind (New York: HarperCollins, 2007), 170.)). Consider this bit of irrationality: In fact, many laypeople as well as scientists revel in our ability to explain how snowflakes and rainbows can spontaneously appear, based on simple, elegant laws of physics. Lawrence M. Krauss is a renowned cosmologist and professor of the School of Earth and Space Exploration at Arizona State University_._ He is the author of numerous articles and books, including the best-selling _The Physics of Star Trek_ and _A Universe from Nothing_ that includes an Afterword from atheist provocateur Richard Dawkins_._ Krauss is an outspoken atheist, evolutionist, and anti-Christian. Otherwise its an endless conundrum of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Someone realised apparantly that the universe could theoretically have come from nothing. Nothing comes from nothing is a philosophical dictum first argued by Parmenides. Anyway, recently i have started to believe in a creator again as i have found no other explanation for our existence? Young Earth Creationists). Can Something Come From Nothing? Man created the gods to ease their insecurity with their ignorance of that which they found significant in life. Big Bang theory does not actually say that the universe came from nothing. Special pleading at its best. The Reification fallacy is basically when someone treats a hypothetical as though it were real. It is the be all and end all of existence. It feels about time that age-old question “why is there something rather than nothing?” should notice it’s old age and finally die off. P1) If A1 and A2 are separated by B then B = E (see above converse issue if false), P2) If B = E then B =/= N therefore B =/= NE, P3) If B =/= NE, and N = NE then N cannot be between A1 and A2, P4) Therefore between all A there must be E. In English, a similar issue to the problem of Bisection will occur, wherein between every atom is another atom, since all things that exist are made of atoms, and in order for atoms to be separated there must be something that exists which separates them (otherwise they couldn’t be separate). But is that the only possibility? But here is where it gets really interesting, when the debate comes forth. 1. The science is complicated, and so is the theory. Can something come from nothing? One of the most fundamental questions of all time nicely dealt with by the guys on the Atheist Experience. Logic, real logic, alone cannot tell us whether something can come from nothing or not, just like it couldn't tell us if the orbits of the planets are perfect spheres or if the sun orbits the earth. It is another way of saying there are no laws and nothing upon which actions could even take place. You can conjure particles from a vacuum under the right conditions. "Nothing" is not a type alternate reality. These particles have tremendous density but we cannot observe them, for their observable characteristics cancel each other out. True, there certainly is no evidence that something can come from nothing, so we must either appeal to some logical argument, or we must appeal to some faith-claim or revelatory insight. In the end, this would further prove the views of Parmenides and Zeno, that movement is impossible, since if there is an infinite number of atoms between point 1 and 2, then you could never traverse them, because you could infinitely bisect the number of atoms that separate 1 from 2. Every day beautiful and miraculous objects suddenly appear, from snowflakes on a cold winter morning to vibrant rainbows after a late-afternoon summer shower. For all anyone can tell, it is possible for something to come from nothing. Ask them where did the first matter come from? Can something come from nothing? 2. What makes them laws? Logic, real logic, alone cannot tell us whether something can come from nothing or not, just like it couldn't tell us if the orbits of the planets are perfect spheres or if the sun orbits the earth. Nothing comes from nothing,Nothing ever could. [ ↩] Believe it or not there are some atheists who actually think nothing can do something. It is associated with ancient Greek cosmology, such as is presented not just in the works of Homer and Hesiod, but also in virtually every internal system: there is no break in-between a world that did not exist and one that did, since it could not be created ex nihilo in the first place. Something is something and nothing is nothing and to think otherwise is nonsense! You want to see a scientist, who doesn't believe in the existence of God, unravel and come unglued in front of your eyes??? Some evolutionists and non-religionists like physicist Max Tegmark ((Max Tegmark, Our Mathematical Universe: My Quest for the Ultimate Nature of Reality Paperback (New York: Vintage Books, 2015), 5.)) You want to let go of your past and start on a new journey, but there is nothing for you to start off with. The following is his starting point upon which he builds his worldview: [M]ost of the energy in the universe resides in some mysterious, now inexplicable form permeating all of empty space. 2. ... Jun 08, 2015: A universe from nothing by: Anonymous When scientists say that the universe can simply come out of nothing without any divine intervention, they think of the universe in terms of its energy content only. Why couldn’t there always have been something? Krauss has stated that “Science is only truly consistent with an atheistic worldview…” I’m sure Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Johannes Kepler, Joseph Lister, James Young Simpson, Samuel F.B. What does this mean? Another point that can be brought up is that if one wishes to state as fact that “Something cannot come from nothing,” they must actually prove this to be the case, the Burden of Proof lies on the one making the claim. So I will first try and portray it with a Proof (think Geometry) and then write out for those who hated high school logic puzzles. Does this mean that love, compassion, morality, and a whole host of human emotions are nothing but mathematics? "Something cannot come from nothing" implies that we know what "nothing" is, but we apparently do not. Here is the Kraussian “science” behind it all: “our universe arose from precisely nothing.” So for Krauss, “nothing” must be “a kind of ‘something’” because “[a]bsolute nothingness means no laws, no vacuums, no fields, no energy, no structures, no physical or mental entities of any kind—and no ‘symmetries.’ It has no properties or potentialities. Lear: "Nothing can come of nothing: speak again." Well nothing, because nothing cannot stop anything because it is… nothing. “Something Good” from The Sound of Music (1965). ((Lawrence M. Krauss, A Universe from Nothing: Why There is Something Rather Than Nothing (New York: Free Press, 2012), xiii.)). Let us consider the ancient philosophers Democritus, Zeno of Elea, and Parmenides (from where the Eleatic School of thought comes). While the question seemed all-important and pertinent to the ancients, what we now know about the nature of the universe renders it obsolete. But if we graciously allow that something is nothing, in the same sort of way every child wins a trophy for participation, than we can say a universe can come from nothing. First, there is the issue that they must prove that something cannot come from nothing. "Nothing" is not a type alternate reality. Thus, they argued that a void of non-existence had to be present in order for there to be a space for atoms to move into. If you can't get something from nothing, then why do you think you can go on to argue the next step? Lyrics by Richard Rodgers.)). Lyrics by Richard Rodgers. “Something can’t come from nothing, so their must be a God” (cosmological, or First Cause, argument) is not only a non sequitur when defending ones religious claims, it is also not a very good argument on its own merit. Now this is where things get more interesting. The beauty of Tryon’s suggestion is that the properties of this vacuum state can be calculated, so the question of how “nothing” became … There was a major contest over the concept of the Void. Eric from Mesa Arizona calls in to challenge Matt to a debate. Man created the gods to ease their insecurity with their ignorance of … In the end, the curse that Zeno and Parmenides plagued us with remains: motion is impossible, because between any two points there are an infinite number of atoms (thank goodness for Limitations and Calculus). Whether or not they actually do appear from nothing, it’s disputed whether virtual particles are actually real. Now at this point, if you are not mathematically minded or familiar with things like Limitations then you are right now rocking back and forth in your chair questioning existence (maybe I’m projecting my own experience after dealing with this). When scientists say that the universe can simply come out of nothing without any divine intervention, they think of the universe in terms of its energy content only. Like Reply Challenge. From the Philosophical definition, no, but "nothing" can't be shown to ever have existed, so it's a moot point. The issue as you can see is that, in the end, the concept of nothing seems to be self-defeating in these contexts. Can something come from nothing? While the question seemed all-important and pertinent to the ancients, what we now know about the nature of the universe renders it obsolete. What about the “laws of physics”? Edited June 9, 2011 by disappointedyoungman If it were, it would cease to be nothing and become something. That's something; that's not nothing." In conclusion, something could come from nothing but equally not become at all. After all, they ask, “How can something come from nothing?” One such religious notion is the story of creation: once upon a time there was nothing, and then, miraculously, there was something. Although I suppose it could be argued that even ideas that are radically different and 'imaginative' are based off something else, in which case it would be 'no'. Lyrics by Richard Rodgers.)) 0. But if something exists, then it must be made of atoms. The first version of this article, which I wrote all the way back in 1997, merely compiled a list of quotes from physicists affirming that something can indeed come from nothing through entirely natural processes, and that the entire universe might be one such thing. But Carrier replied to my point with this statement: Oh yes, "out of nothing, nothing comes" is another one. I don’t know of a single “fundamentalist” who has ever claimed that God designs every snowflake. This is where all parties can fall into a fallacy, because we have to distinguish that just because we treat something as an object within language, that doesn’t make it a real object (unicorns aren’t real, even though when discussing them, we talk about them in terms of real things). So now we have established that something can come from nothing. The first issue that anyone could bring up in reply would be that, “No one said the Big Bang came from nothing,” and thus the issue of nothing would be entirely avoided to a degree (though the question of the first cause still exists). It’s not an understatement to say that the discovery has changed the playing field of modern cosmology. Any answer that solves this problem for god can probably also just … The Paradox of Bisection is a well-known issue that anyone taking an introductory algebra course has probably run across, but for those who don’t know, here is how it goes: P1) In order to go from point A to point B, one must first go the halfway point AB, P2) In order to go from point AB to point B, one must go to the halfway point ABB, P3) In order to go from point ABB to point B, one must go to halfway point ABBB. My father who is a mechanical engineer seems to think that something cannot come from nothing but I think that he is wrong because my father evidently never heard of virtual particles and quantum field theory. 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